Feature Articles
January 19, 2000
Tonic has been able to capture critical commercial success with their own mixture of guitar-spiked vocals and infectious lyrics. Comprised of Emerson Hart, Jeff Russo and Dan Lavery, Tonic quickly created a name for themselves through their extensive performance schedule. Released in 1996, their highly acclaimed debut album, Lemon Parade, soon had additional fans joining their already loyal audiences. TONIC followed up with their latest release Sugar, which yielded the hit single "Mean To Me". The following excerpts are from an ASCAP sponsored panel, featuring TONIC, held in Los Angeles earlier this year:
Tonic represents a perfect example of something we're talking about a lot in this group, which is the idea of collaboration. Can you talk a little bit about the collaborative process for Tonic?
Hart: The most important thing you have to learn, or that I had to learn, is that you just have to be open. You have to be open to every idea. Don't shoot it down; just take it, listen to it, and the song will always decide. You'll know if it's wrong. I think it's natural, at least in our case.
 Russo: We're pretty honest with each other, too. I mean, you have to be honest with each other. If you're collaborating with somebody and they've brought you an idea that you don't think is strong, it's a hard thing to do, but it's also going to save you a lot of time and trouble later, to just say, 'You know what? Let's work on something else.' Either you have to be really honest in the beginning, or when it's done.
Did you end up writing any songs at all in the studio? Do you believe in that?
Hart: You have to always leave room. We produced 'Sugar' on our own. That was a lot of responsibility for us. A lot of people said, 'You're nuts if you want to go in there and do that.' Not only us, but the label was pretty much peeing in their pants. It was great because we really had to give ourselves creative room. You have to leave room for inspiration.
Did one of you find you had a stronger side in the production side? Some writers are way more technocrats than others are.
Russo: I think the great thing about the way we worked in producing this record is that each one of us was able to produce each other really well. Whoever was performing was able to step out of the producer role and into the artist role, or into the songwriter role. It was usually the other two guys who were behind the desk making the decisions. Saying, 'Yeah, that was a little flat or that doesn't sound good, or that part isn't working really right.'
Hart: We also had a great engineer. That was half the battle.
Russo: Another thing that we were really good at was not being afraid to try whatever it is everybody wanted to try. It was really important to go as far as you can to one end with whatever the idea is. Then try to work your way back to see if it works or if it doesn't work. This gives every idea a chance to live and a chance to breathe.
Many people, when they obtain a certain amount of their goals, forget about what got them there. Have you encountered reactions you didn't expect when you were playing at the Mint five or six years ago?
Hart: It was a very cool experience after 'If You Could Only See' started hitting big. The reason why I refer to that song is it's a very personal song for me. I even questioned putting it on the record, and Jeff convinced me that it should go on the record. Then I came to the realization that we do this to communicate with people. That's why we do it. So don't lie, just be honest, get your music out there. It was a really weird experience for me to write a song eight years ago, to be playing in front of a couple thousand people, and watch someone who I've never met, who I've never seen in my life, mouthing the words and understanding what I said. This is a thought that I had in my living room, when I was going through misery, and I wrote it down, and here's this person that I don't know and I've touched their life. I mean, that is powerful.
How did you come to the attention of a publisher?
Russo: The funny thing is, the first band that I was in had signed a publishing deal with a small publishing company, and because I left the band, they let me out of that publishing deal. So one of the people who worked at that publishing company went over to EMI, and Emerson and I had been making demos so we sent a demo tape over to them and they signed us. That allowed us to quit our jobs, and they had a studio that we could use to demo stuff.
When you got the record deal, what was your relationship like with the label in the very beginning? Was it all high fives and excitement, you guys are the greatest band we've ever seen and we're going to really push you?
Russo: We got really lucky, because we signed with Atlas/Polydor, which was a really small boutique label through A&M and Polygram, and there were like twelve people working for the label so we knew everybody. We could call the president and get the president on the phone, because it was just him and one other guy in the office. We really lucked out. Everybody was really, really excited, and they worked really, really hard to make our first record happen, so that was really great.
Lavery: Objectively speaking, I saw, because I was friends with these guys but was not on the first record, I joined after it was made. I remember, when you guys first started touring, the label was pushing the band like crazy, even when it was a modest success. Even at a point where I think most labels would have potentially just said, 'OK, start writing for your next record.' They really kept pushing to the point where it kind of blew up. It was awesome to watch.
Were you guys behind the scenes pushing them to push the record, and did they think, 'Hey, we think there are two songs on this record that could potentially be really big, and we're going to go for it'?
Hart: We realized that we really have to learn the balance between making the music and being in control of your career. It has to be a really fine line, because if you get too wrapped up in the business, then you just become a mean, miserable guy. Or you get to the other side, where you just don't know, you keep your head down and make your music, and people are taking money out of your pocket.
So how do you strike that balance?
Hart: We'll let you know when we hit it. No, it's a constant process. I know it is for me, I constantly struggle with it. Some members of the band are better at business than others, really staying on top of it. That's the great thing about having a band, I have to say. We all have different skills; we're like a Superfriends team. Everybody has a form of something, and that really does help us. Like, Dan is always in charge of the web site, he always knows what's going on with that stuff. Jeff is always backing it up, and I don't really have any skills. You really have to learn that balance. As long as you always have to draw the line that we did, which is that music must always come first. Without the music, you have nothing. As long as you always, remember that. If you're not being honest, if you're not being honest in your songwriting, it's not worth it, it's crap. Throw it out. Be honest, make the music your priority, and the other things will follow.
How much of your lyric writing is based on personal, and by that I mean Emerson-related experiences, and how much is based on observational? Do you ever sort of empathetically write a song as if you're writing for Jeff? Is it all you?
Hart: I'm in this to be honest. That's the whole point. I think sometimes I'll write how people's lives affect me. In that way, that's probably as far as I go outside. Things affect me and I want to write about them. I think, unless I grow as a writer, maybe somewhere down the line I'll change and I'll write lyrics about other people, or things that I see other people do to other people. I know how people affect me and how things affect me. So that's the only way I can write.
Are there some songs where it comes quickly? Did you labor over some of the songs?
Russo: The title track. ("Sugar")
Hart: These guys had the music, most of the music for that. I'd never heard it until?
Russo: Dan and I had sat in a hotel room a year and a half ago, came up with a little bit of a melody idea, some chords and stuff like that. We came and brought it to Emerson, and it just sort of gestated itself over a period of like a year and a half. It actually didn't get finished until right down at the very last second.
Lavery: Actually, we went to Austin, Texas, for like two, three weeks or something. We rented a house on the lake to get away. It was just the three of us, well, the four of us, our old drummer was still with us. A lot of changes took place in that particular song. I remember, that song makes me think of Austin because we just basically sat up all night , playing guitar, batting around ideas, changing existing ideas and trying to develop these ideas into something more. Taking parts from one and putting them into another, that kind of thing.
Hart: We recorded this record in a 15,000 square foot mansion in New Orleans, which was an old King's Way studio, which was Daniel Lanois' studio. It was an unbelievable experience, because I'm an old house freak. I love old homes, old homes and old farms. We came into this, and essentially, we were living like kings in this mansion, which was haunted beyond belief. It was crazy how haunted this place was. I remember, sitting upstairs and rewriting the chorus melodies.
Touching on collaborating, do you guys ever run into a problem defining the relationship between, or the definition of whether you're arranging a song or writing a song? Like credit-wise, if somebody comes in and is singing the melody and has the whole song in their head, and you guys start working on it, do you consider that songwriting? How do you define that term, songwriting?
Hart: I don't think there's an absolute formula that goes for every song. It's always going to be different.
Russo: Also, there's no absolute formula when it comes to who ever you're working with. If you're collaborating with somebody, what you should do is always kind of get (business) all taken care of in the beginning, or else it'll be a very long dragged out argument over a long period of time. The thing is that everybody has their own formula. There's a lot of different people who do it a lot of different ways, and there's no right or wrong way to do it, however you're comfortable doing it, you know? The way we do it is, if somebody brings something to the song, changes a chord, adds a chord, adds lots of chords, adds lyrics, or changes the melody, that's considered songwriting. If somebody says, 'Why don't you put the chorus here or put the bridge here,' and then, 'why don't you change that verse around a little bit,' that's not really songwriting. That's just arranging or producing or however you want to look at that.
Hart: There's no real rules, you can make your own rules. Just don't get sucked into the one-chord guy, you don't want to be that guy. You don't want to be the guy who walks into the room, adds one chord, and says, 'I want twenty-fifty percent.' Tell that guy off.
Are there songs or moments musically you're especially proud of?
Lavery: It's funny. I remember, the first time I heard 'Future Says Wrong,' it was in Austin. I remember it was something Emerson had brought to us, and it was one of those songs that was just done. You listen to it and go, 'Yup, thank you. Next?' There was nothing to say about it for me, it was like, that song rules, let's record it tomorrow. I can remember when we worked on the music for 'Sugar.' I guess it was in Houston. We were in one hotel room, and I was really excited to bring it to him, because I felt like we had come up with something that had a feeling to it. Not just, like some music thrown together.
Russo: That was a great experience for all of us.
Hart: I think that song really marked the beginning of a true collaboration between the three of us, as far as songwriting goes. It was a really important step for the band to take.
That brings us back to the point we were going to talk about earlier, some of the things you have to do on the business side of the music business to maintain good relationships with the people you work with. Talk about some of those things.
Hart: Don't ever forget the power of radio, if any of you guys are out, whether you're solo artists or a band. If a radio station asks you to come and do a song, go and do a song. You're never a star. Remember that you're never a star. Because those are the people who will carry you through the bad times. There's no loyalty to begin with, so try to get as much as you can. Always be friendly. I know a lot of times, people were telling us 'you don't have to be so friendly, man. You need to be a star. You need to have a little attitude.' It was hard, because I watch other people who remain nameless, and they're total a--holes. Total a--holes, and they're very successful right now. Screaming at their crew, screaming at radio people, pulling the most random stuff, and they're successful. I can't be that way. As much as I tried to be that guy, I'm just not that guy, so be yourself. Be honest, be friendly, if that's what you are. If you're an a--hole, be an a--hole. Always be nice, if you can, like I said, with radio people, with your label. Be respectful, don't let them walk on you, don't be overly nice. Don't be like, 'OK, I'll do anything you want, anything you want.' You have to set yourself a limit. Remember that you are an artist, and you do have power inside of yourself. You might not out in the real world, but if you control yourself to command respect, you will get respect. You can do it without being a jerk.
Russo: The bottom line is that this business is a business of personalities. There are 100 million different kinds of personalities, and you just have to try to adjust yourself for every personality that's out there.
What are those things you're looking for from a publishing company and record companies, and who helped you figure out what you're supposed to ask for?
Russo: With a publishing company, it's basically about money, always about money. It's about, how can they give us money to help further our career? Can they give us money for promotional purposes? Can they help pay for commercials? Can they help fund a tour, or whatever it is? A publishing company is basically a bank and they're loaning you money at a 25% interest rate. It's true. That's what you can expect or try to get out of them, and it's just a question of how they can use that money to help you. A record company does a million and one different things. As far as promoting singles and trying to make videos and getting videos played on MTV or wherever you need to get it played. International stuff, which is a whole other issue. Trying to get the international team behind you, so you can get your record released in Guam. The list goes on and on and on. But really, having a great management team to help you decide what battles to fight for is the most important thing. Because you can ask for a lot, but you should really, really choose your battles wisely. If you ask too much, eventually they'll say no, so you want to get them to do the right things.
When you played in LA, how did that affect your performance, your live act? Hart: The funny thing is, we played every week. The more you play, obviously, the better you get. Since we played every week, that really helped us to define the way we were as a live band. A lot of that changed when we went in to make our first record, because we kind of changed things, our sound started playing a little more electric when we were acoustic before that. The great thing about playing at the Mint every week was that back then we kind of did have a scene.
Russo: It was still hard, though. We just got lucky with the clubs. Dave Surnow, who is a promoter here, really backed us, really supported us. Every Sunday he was there. Slowly people started to come down. You really have to do it. I gotta say, we didn't really learn how to be a band until we got into a van and toured for seven months without a record out. That's when we really learned about playing live, because we learned about discipline, ethics, responsibility and showing up on time. Being nice to the people in the club, who run the club, who book the club, all that stuff is an important part of your career.
Hart: Not to mention being able to play in front of three people. It makes you appreciate it a lot more, too.
You were talking about going somewhere peaceful, and how not writing for six months was freaking you out. Do you have a discipline, or do you write when the spirit moves you?
Hart: I try to play a guitar once a day. I pick it up. Just like Hemingway used to say, "I get up at 4:00 in the morning and I write. It might be crap, but I write." I pick up the guitar and I just play. I keep my muscle in motion. I can honestly say, I can't write unless I'm inspired. I've tried it, and it's garbage.
Lyric-wise?
Hart: Lyric-wise, musically, anything. I'm not at that level of songwriting yet. That's a whole other level. I'm not really like a Jedi. I haven't reached that place where you can Obi-Wan that stuff right out. Serenity equals sanity for me, in many ways. Meaning my surroundings. Sometimes if I need to write, I need to reflect on the madness I'm going through. Sometimes it comes to me.
Do you two ever come to Emerson with experiences of your own, like, 'This is what I'm trying to get across, can you write this, or is it all your experiences that you write about?
Hart: Yeah. The only thing that might be a little bit of a balance would be 'Beloved Diamond,' which was the track that Jeff was talking about before. I didn't know what was going on with him personally, but I just could feel what was going on with him. So maybe subconsciously, it would work that way.
You could feel it through the music?
Hart: Exactly.
Russo: It's like the purest form of communication.
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